Monday, November 28, 2005

The Continuing Chaos in Iraq

Time for an update on Iraq.

Under Saddam Hussein, Iraq was a secular country. But now there are troubling signs that the country is even more extreme and more religious.

As you know, I periodically check in with the Riverbend blog to see what's really transpiring there. We can't hope to get unbiased reports from our media. Hell, our reporters can't even leave the Green Zone to get a cup of coffee.

According to the woman who writes the Riverbend Blog,

In the last three weeks, at least six different prominent doctors/professors have been assassinated. Some of them were Shia and some of them were Sunni- some were former Ba’athists and others weren’t. The only thing they have in common is the fact that each of them played a prominent role in Iraqi universities prior to the war: Dr. Haykal Al-Musawi, Dr. Ra'ad Al-Mawla (biologist), Dr. Sa'ad Al-Ansari, Dr. Mustafa Al-Heeti (pediatrician), Dr. Amir Al-Khazraji, and Dr.Mohammed Al-Jaza'eri (surgeon).

Another professor killed earlier this month was the head of the pharmacy college. He had problems with Da’awa students earlier in the year. After Ja’afari et al. won in the elections, their followers in the college wanted to have a celebration in the college. Sensing it would lead to trouble, he wouldn’t allow any festivities besides the usual banners. He told them it was a college for studying and learning and to leave politics out of it. Some students threatened him- there were minor clashes in the college. He was killed around a week ago- maybe more.

Whoever is behind the assassinations, Iraq is quickly losing its educated people. More and more doctors and professors are moving to leave the country.
The problem with this situation is not just major brain drain- it's the fact that this diminishing educated class is also Iraq's secular class…


So all those happy stories about how we're over there opening more schools and hospitals don't really mean much, if the teachers and doctors are trying to leave the country.


And according to Tom Friedman of the New York Times who wrote about Iraq's new constitution:

Islamists will have to accept being unhappy that the system does not mandate Sharia law as the constitution, but only "reasonably" unhappy, because Islam will be the official religion of the state and respected as an important basis for legislation and governance. Secularists will have to accept being unhappy that Iraq's new basic law gives Islam an important symbolic place in governance, but only "reasonably" unhappy, because this secular law and judges will still provide the basis for a new rule of law.

Then there's that business about the recently discovered Iraqi torture chamber, again from Riverbend:

These torture houses have existed since the beginning of the occupation. While it is generally known that SCIRI is behind them, other religious parties are not innocent. The Americans know they exist- why the sudden shock and outrage? This is hardly news for Americans in the Green Zone. The timing is quite interesting- it shouldn't matter that this raid came immediately after the whole white phosphorous story came out, but the Pentagon and American military have proven to be the ultimate masters of diversion.

Only last year in an area called Ghazaliya, one such house was discovered. It was on a smaller scale though. My cousin lives in Ghazaliya and he said that when the Americans got inside, they found several corpses and a man hanging from the ceiling on a makeshift noose. The neighbors had tried to get the Americans to check the house for months- no one bothered. They finally raided it because they got information from someone in the area that it was an insurgents hiding place. I read once that in New York, if a woman is being raped, she should scream 'fire' instead of 'rape' because no one would come to save her if she was screaming 'rape'. That's the way it is with Iraqi torture houses- the only way they'll check it is if you tell them it's a terrorist cell.

And another thing- you know when they say 'men dressed in Ministry of Interior uniforms' or 'men in official cars claiming to be from the Ministry of Interior', etc. when describing some horror committed by the new Iraqi security forces in the news? Here's a thought: they aren't 'claiming' and they aren't in costume- they actually ARE from the Ministry of Interior! One would think they'd do this covertly so as not to enrage Iraqis or humanitarian organisations, except that it doesn't matter to them because SCIRI and Da'awa aren't out to win hearts and minds. They have American favor- what more does one need in the New Iraq?

For over a year corpses have been turning up all over Baghdad. Corpses of people who are taken from their homes in the middle of the night (lately they've been more brazen- they just do everything in the light of day), and turn up dead somewhere. That isn't as disturbing as the reports about the bodies- the one I can't get out of my head is that many of the corpses are found with holes in the skull left by an electric drill.


And what about the White Phosphorus? The LA Times did a story on that today:

The Pentagon and other U.S. officials at first denied, and later admitted, that troops had used white phosphorus as a weapon against insurgents in Fallouja...


This is interesting, because now how do we know they're telling the trust when they say that its use wasn't widespread and that civilians were not among those killed?

When white phosporus comes in contact with skin, the chemical will burn through to the bone. The only way to stop it, is to cut off its air supply. According the LA Times article, incendiaries like wp are considered particularly inhumane weapons under international treaty, and a 1980 United Nations convention limits their use. However the U.S. never signed that part of the convention.

In the 1990s, we condemned Saddam for allegedly using white phosphorus chemical weapons against Kudish rebles and residents of Irbil and Dohuk

A soldier in the LA Times article said:

We had rounds of wp burst in the air quite close to us, and the Marines were quite concerned, since they knew of its impact - that it burns through flesh and is impossible to extinguish."

And if you really want a jolt of reality, click on this link courtesy of Crooks & Liars,to see a trophy video that appears to show security guards from the British security contractor, Aegis Defense Services, randomly shooting Iraqi citizens from their car while they listen to Elvis Presley's Mystery Train. If you want to read the story, this link will take you to an article from London's Daily Telegraph.

82 Comments:

Blogger Cranky Yankee said...

Bring on the apologist and disbelievers. Shrubco technically never lied. America is number one. Arabs do worse to each other. It's the greatest nation. They haven't found a y rape rooms yet. At the Iraqis get to vote for who does the torturing. Yada yada... Why are you helping the terrorists?

America has the grossest national product.

3:03 PM, November 28, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

oh boy... i wasn't going to respond to your rant cranky. and i won't. i just have to ask one question: you had the drink we spoke about, didn't you?

5:08 PM, November 28, 2005  
Blogger Philip Morton said...

Dissent breeds weakness. Accountability guarantees that we may seem weak. Lying makes us strong. Falshoods are the new truths, because truth-hoods, make us seem false.

Hey, I really like that last one.

11:16 PM, November 28, 2005  
Blogger Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

*cough*

Iraq was secular because Saddam ruled it with a fist of iron, with freedom comes freedom of choice and that means more poeople than not want a government based on Islam (to some degree or another). That's fine by me.

What I have a problem with is the US not sticking it out there for 10 years and making sure the transition to a free state is as pain free as possible. Otherwise we end up seeing another nation killing itself to define itself whereas the US can oversee the period of self-definition but it'll never happen cuz the Us and the majority of it's people are too squeemish about nation building.

2:36 AM, November 29, 2005  
Blogger Shawn said...

The sky is falling!

Great comment by daniel

7:36 AM, November 29, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow, that video is crap. You will see scenes change, but the music goes on uninterupted. It's an edited music video worthy of MTV!

7:44 AM, November 29, 2005  
Blogger boni said...

US presence in Iraq guarantees squat. Look what is happening now under our guidance. I encourage you to check out this article that ran today in the LA Times http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-death29nov29,0,2153825.story?coll=la-home-headlines that verifies what I gleaned from Riverbend.

The LA Times article details that "Shiite Muslim militia members have infiltrated Iraq's police force and are carrying out sectarian killings under the color of law, according to documents and scores of interviews.

In recent months, hundreds of bodies have been discovered in rivers, garbage dumps, sewage treatment facilities and alongside roads and in desert ravines. Many of them are thought to be victims of Sunni insurgents, who are known to target Shiite civilians and Iraqi security forces, and even Sunni Arabs believed to be collaborating with U.S. forces or the Iraqi government. But increasingly, the Shiite militias operating within the national police force are also suspected of committing atrocities.
U.S. officials have long been concerned about extrajudicial killings in Iraq, but until recently they have refrained from calling violent elements within the police force "death squads" — a loaded term that conjures up the U.S.-backed paramilitaries that killed thousands of civilians during the Latin American civil wars of the 1970s and 1980s.

But U.S. military advisors in Iraq say the term is apt, and the Interior Ministry's inspector general concurs that extrajudicial killings are being carried out by ministry forces."

US presence alone won't mollify the violence as long as Shiites hate Sunnis and Sunnis hate Shiites. I don't know
what the solution is to the Iraq issue. I'm damn sure the Bush administration doesn't, either. But it certainly is a disastrous mess that they created.

8:49 AM, November 29, 2005  
Blogger boni said...

Oh and I forgot to mention this story in CNN,
"Reaching out to the Sunni Arab community, Iraqi leaders called for a timetable for the withdrawal of U.S.-led forces and said Iraq's opposition had a "legitimate right" of resistance."

That's right. The new leaders of Iraq, that we helped put in place, said that Iraq's opposition had a legit right to oppose us being there.

"The communique -- finalized by Shiite, Kurdish and Sunni leaders Monday -- condemned terrorism but was a clear acknowledgment of the Sunni position that insurgents should not be labeled as terrorists if their operations do not target innocent civilians or institutions designed to provide for the welfare of Iraqi citizens.

The leaders agreed on "calling for the withdrawal of foreign troops according to a timetable, through putting in place an immediate national program to rebuild the armed forces ... control the borders and the security situation" and end terror attacks.

The preparatory reconciliation conference, held under the auspices of the Arab League, was attended by Iraq President Jalal Talabani and Iraqi Shiite and Kurdish lawmakers as well as leading Sunni politicians.

9:38 AM, November 29, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

"...in a survey last month from the U.S.-based International Republican Institute, 47% of Iraqis polled said their country was headed in the right direction, as opposed to 37% who said they thought that it was going in the wrong direction. And 56% thought things would be better in six months. Only 16% thought they would be worse."

"American soldiers are also much more optimistic than American civilians. The Pew Research Center and the Council on Foreign Relations just released a survey of American elites that found that 64% of military officers are confident that we will succeed in establishing a stable democracy in Iraq. The comparable figures for journalists and academics are 33% and 27%, respectively. Even more impressive than the Pew poll is the evidence of how our service members are voting with their feet. Although both the Army and the Marine Corps are having trouble attracting fresh recruits — no surprise, given the state of public opinion regarding Iraq — reenlistment rates continue to exceed expectations. Veterans are expressing their confidence in the war effort by signing up to continue fighting."

"Now, it could be that the Iraqi public and the U.S. armed forces are delusional. Maybe things really are on an irreversible downward slope. But before reaching such an apocalyptic conclusion, stop to consider why so many with firsthand experience have more hope than those without any.

For starters, one can point to two successful elections this year, on Jan. 30 and Oct. 15, in which the majority of Iraqis braved insurgent threats to vote. The constitutional referendum in October was particularly significant because it marked the first wholesale engagement of Sunnis in the political process. Since then, Sunni political parties have made clear their determination to also participate in the Dec. 15 parliamentary election. This is big news. The most disaffected group in Iraq is starting to realize that it must achieve its objectives through ballots, not bullets.

There are also positive economic indicators that receive little or no coverage in the Western media. For all the insurgents' attempts to sabotage the Iraqi economy, the Brookings Institution reports that per capita income has doubled since 2003 and is now 30% higher than it was before the war. Thanks primarily to the increase in oil prices, the Iraqi economy is projected to grow at a whopping 16.8% next year. According to Brookings' Iraq index, there are five times more cars on the streets than in Saddam Hussein's day, five times more telephone subscribers and 32 times more Internet users. "

Max Boot L.A. Times

this is because i know cranky loves documented quotes (although when he's asked to search out specific answers in the same way, he skirts the issue, but that's another story)...

what's even more profound about this article is the reality that all is not rosy in iraq, much is still to be done...

... however, zarqawi's family disowns him, the jordans are calling for his death, yet it seems like the only people supporting this loony in droves tends to be the left-wing media (and bloggers).

I'm sure you'll accuse me of being unoriginal, and suggest that either the numbers in the surveys are lies or the pollsters themselves are hired by right wing wackos. simply, this article illustrates that the left wing media keeps endorsing dooms-day scenerios when evidence can be found that progress is being made in iraq. but they will never report these findings.

sigh! the propaganda war continues and at home, the truth is losing. on the streets of iraq, however, the truth is winning and will truimph.

12:08 PM, November 29, 2005  
Blogger boni said...

Max Boot? Is that the best you can do Pete?

For your information, what you quoted was not an article. It is right-wing commentary.


According to a recent article on CNN, former Prime Minister Ayad Allawi, a secular shiite, says that human rights abuses in Iraq are as bad as they were under Saddam Hussein.

If you think the soldiers believe it's going well over there, check out optruth.org Operation Truth provides a national forum and where member veterans can educate the public and the media by sharing their stories and concerns, and where the successes and failures of the current conflicts are openly discussed for the edification of all citizens, including service members. This is not a lefty group of soldiers. It's soldiers from both parties and all walks of life who
all share a common experience. They've been over there fighting. I'd believe them far more readily than I would every believe Max Boot.

And it's idiocy to state that the left supports zarqawi.
I know your position's really weak when you resort to crap like that. What we don't support is an insane war without an intelligent plan for withdrawal.

Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld have repeatedly defied our military leaders who told them how to fight this war. (Although I never thought we had a clear reason to fight it.)
They had better start listening...

12:44 PM, November 29, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

boni

the point of this right wing commentary was the poll, especially by the pew research center.

not maxwell smart or whatever his name is...

sorry you missed the subtlety.

the following is a break down of the pew research center for the people and the press so you don't also attack it for being a right-wing hate-tank:

he Center is an independent opinion research group that studies attitudes toward the press, politics and public policy issues. We are best known for regular national surveys that measure public attentiveness to major news stories, and for our polling that charts trends in values and fundamental political and social attitudes. Formerly, the Times Mirror Center for the People & the Press (1990-1995), we are now sponsored by The Pew Charitable Trusts and are one of six projects that make up the Pew Research Center, a nonpartisan "fact tank" that provides information on the issues, attitudes and trends shaping America and the world.

The Center's purpose is to serve as a forum for ideas on the media and public policy through public opinion research. In this role it serves as an important information resource for political leaders, journalists, scholars, and public interest organizations. All of our current survey results are made available free of charge.

The research program includes five principal areas of investigation:

The People & The Press - explores public attitudes about the credibility, social value and salience of the news media.
The People, The Press & Politics - features a typology which divides the American electorate into distinct voting groups and identifies the basic values and attitudes that animate political behavior.
The News Interest Index - measures on a regular basis how closely the public follows the major news stories and links this to views about politics and policy issues.
America's Place in the World - a series of in-depth surveys and analyses of the public and opinion leaders on international policy in the post-Cold War era.
Media Use - major surveys that measure the public's use of, and attitudes toward, the Internet and traditional news outlets.
Independent pollster Andrew Kohut, founder of Princeton Survey Research Associates and former President of the Gallup Organization, is president of the Pew Research Center and serves as director of both the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press and the Pew Global Attitudes Project. Our sponsor, The Pew Charitable Trusts, is a Philadelphia-based public charity that serves the public interest by providing information, advancing policy solutions and supporting civic life.

12:51 PM, November 29, 2005  
Blogger Shawn said...

Statistics are more accurate than anecdotes. Peter wins! ;)

1:18 PM, November 29, 2005  
Blogger boni said...

Pete,
Yeah you're all about subtlety.

When was the Pew Research Poll taken? I doubt that reenlistment is still as high as the poll claims since the military just renigged on the $15,000 re-upping bonuses they promised. And since the military has had trouble making their goals they are now accepting a much higher number of low-scoring recruits.

According to this Newsday article from 11/8/2005:
The number of new recruits who scored at the bottom of the Army's aptitude test tripled last month, Pentagon officials said, helping the nation's largest armed service meet its October recruiting goal but raising concerns about the quality of the force.

Former Army Secretary Thomas E. White said the service was making a mistake by lowering its standards. "I think it's disastrous. You are throwing the towel in on recruiting quality," said White, a retired general whom Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld fired in 2003 over other policy differences.

"We have clear experience from the 1970s with recruiting a sizable number of people from the lowest mental categories," said White. After the Vietnam War, the Army accepted a higher proportion of low-scoring recruits, leading to training and discipline problems, he added.

To achieve last month's recruiting targets, 12 percent of those accepted by the Army had the lowest acceptable results. They scored between 16 and 30 points out of a possible 99 on an aptitude test that quizzes potential soldiers on general science, mathematics and word knowledge.

No more than 4 percent of all recruits can come from that lowest category, according to Pentagon limits. Army officials insisted they would still meet the 4 percent goal - despite the October spike - when numbers are tallied for an entire year. October is the first month of the service's fiscal year, which will end Sept. 30, 2006.


Even with the lower standards, the Army and the National Guard fell short of their 2005 goals. When the annual recruiting cycle ended in September, the active-duty Army was about 7,000 shy of its goal and the Guard fell about 13,000 short.

Analysts say that with high-tech weapons systems and ever-more-sophisticated equipment, the Army needs higher-aptitude recruits.

The recruiting problems could prompt the military to turn increasingly to recent immigrants in filling its ranks. Another option: tapping the pool of recent college graduates by offering an enlistment of 15 months, instead of the current three years, an idea Moskos said has been gaining attention among Army generals.

Officials blame the recruiting problems on the deadly war in Iraq and an improved economic climate at home, which has made it more difficult to sign up volunteers for military duty."

So much for guys signing up for this thing because they believe in the war. So many of the recruits are poor or
want to become citizens. I idoubt the college guys are going to buy into this mess

1:30 PM, November 29, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

here's another take on iraq, although not based in the science of polls, just observation...

... and Phillip should like this one (or maybe not) since it comes from (an albeit right winger) hollywood elite: bruce willis:

"As some of you may have heard by now, Bruce Willis is apparently offering a $1 million bounty on the heads of A-list terrorists like Osama Bin Laden, Aymen Al-Zawahiri or Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi. We read this from WENN:

Actor Bruce Willis has offered $1 million to anyone who turns in al-Qaeda terror leaders. The patriotic Die Hard star will pay out for information on the whereabouts of Osama Bin Laden, Aymen Al-Zawahiri or Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, the alleged brains behind the 9/11 atrocity. Willis announced his reward on US TV show “Rita Cosby: Live And Direct,” where he also slammed biased media coverage of the Iraq war. He said, “I am baffled to understand why the things that I saw happening in Iraq, really good things happening in Iraq, are not being reported on.”

...So far as I’m aware, this is the first instance of a Hollywood celebrity offering a bounty on anything other than Mike Ovitz’s head.

5:08 PM, November 29, 2005  
Blogger Balloon Pirate said...

Peter:

Yes! You've won me over! Your statistics are right on! The scales have fallen from my eyes! If the guy from Moonlighting is offering a mil for the head of Bin Laden, then everything must be going great! It's good to see that the guy who sold wine coolers and lost his wife to a teenager is now on the forefront of international policy.

Because if the CIA and the Pentagon can't find Bin Laden, bring in Jimmy "The Tulip" for the job!

So let's send all those troops in Afghanistan to Iraq where they belong, since it's a terrorist hotbed, just like Prez Bush said it was.

And thanks for not putting any links for any of your statistics, like this:
http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=263
so that I have to go and find them myself!

So, I'll just go by your statistics, Peter, and not from what I'm seeing and hearing and reading.

Because if I actually read the Pew report, I would find that that factoid you dropped on us: 64% of military officers are confident that we will succeed in establishing a stable democracy in Iraq is true only for a given value of 'confident!' That 64% is an aggregate number, combining the two positive responses, and that only 13% of the military questioned said "definitely," meaning 51% of these gung-ho, can-do, never-say-die individuals--many of whom are tasked with doing just what this question asked, but they don't have anything invested in this--gave a far more qualified "probably."

And this way, I don't have to see that only 2% more of these officers feel that the decision to put us there was wrong...the opinions split 49% to 47%. Forty-nine percent! It's a mandate!

Thanks, Peter, for not making me look that up! You gave me cherry-picked statistics, and that's fine with me! Can we make George King now?

It's so great to be this way, Peter! I love it! Now, I can just call people who question the morality of "extrordinary rendition" names, because, well, those people have obviously done something wrong! Just look at their skin! Listen to how foreign their names are!

So what if one of the people being held is an American citizen? Who cares if his constitutional rights are being violated and no one cares? His last name's Padilla! The rights of American Citizens are only for the ones who agree with us!

That's us--you and me petey! Screw the rest of them!

Haha! This feels great!

So, tell ya what...go get that new Playboy, and go cut out the pictures. You don't have to come here any more. You won!

Yeharr

8:11 PM, November 29, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

Hi balloon, nice to hear from you.

I'm not sure if you're more upset over finding numbers that don't support your doomsday scenerio or more upset over having to find them yourself.

oh, and don't forget, if you go on iri. org, the international republican institute, you'll also find the other survey saying that 47% of iraqis think their country is moving in the right direction as opposed to 37%.

don't be scared balloon, just because the name "republican" is found in the name, the iri is a non-partisan, non-profit organization...

sorry balloon, i didn't realize this was about winning and losing. i thought this was a forum for exchanging free ideas. winning is what soldiers do.

and, i already have this months playboy- not all that special really. actually, quite disappointing. there's, you know, no artistry to this one. oh well, there's always next month...

2:28 AM, November 30, 2005  
Blogger Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Some thoughts:

Don't get me started on offering bounty!What a crass and desperate act, Bin Laden is dead (but we need our figure head of evil being superimposed over the twin towers) and no amount of bounty will remove the the non-existant head of a terrorist organisation that succeeds through its diversity and disperate nature. Why an earth you posted that shit I've no idea.

Quote from Boni: "I don't know what the solution is to the Iraq issue. I'm damn sure the Bush administration doesn't, either." This felt a little like a cop out to my comment (and I mean that in a nice way). It's no good shrugging shoulders and repeating the mantra TROOPS COME HOME. This is of no use to the people of Iraq who have been shit on once by being invaded and shit on again because nation building is so un fashinable and the US is an empire in denial.

Please see the awful mess that is Afghanistan for reference of the dangers of quick withdrawl.

Basically, if the US would stick it out in Iraq for the 10 or so years required to oversee a transitional government and to fully stabilise a country then I think we'd see a different situation. But that'll never happen as the US is an empire caught between two stools.

Before I go, let's talk about Sudan shall we? Here is another example of what could happen if the US followed through with it's imperial tendencies rather than bottling it. It bottled the military presence required to stabilise and instead offered money. So at least the children being gang raped have full bellies.

ENOUGH IRAQ! More Sudan and Afghanistan!

Peace to you all.

2:49 AM, November 30, 2005  
Blogger Balloon Pirate said...

peter! I'm not upset! interesting that you should think so! I said I'm happy! We're on the same side now!

So much on the same side, that just like you, I've ignored the title of the Pew study you quoted, which is: Opinion Leaders Turn Cautious, Public Looks Homeward, and only embraced the statistic that proves the point you're trying to make. I'll ignore the fact that the study shows that among the rest of the combined 'opinion leaders' 67% of those polled feel our efforts to establish democracy will fail. I will particularly ignore the category 'Foreign Affairs,' in which 71% of these opinion leaders feel our approach will fail. And we-I say we now, peter, because i feel so close to you--aren't doing this to try to use cherry-picked data (I LOVE cherries! Cherry pie for all!) to try and win a point, because winning, like you said, is for soldiers.

...are you a soldier, peter? Tell me you are! My son's a soldier too! He's serving in Iraq right now. My nephew is a marine, and he's home for six months. He's going back to Baghdad in March. Wait til I tell him the good news! He'll be sooo excited! Just like I am!


I still can't get over your thinking that you upset me...or is this one of those transferrance things? Are YOU upset, peter? I didn't say anything about winning or losing, other than 'you've won me over,' meaning your stunning grasp of facts and reasoning has converted me to your way of thinking.

And also, the way of thinking of the International Republican Institute! Now, THAT'S as fair and balanced a group of people that's ever been assembled. I mean, a group whose staff and board has links to such groups as The Center for Strategic and International Studies, The Heritage Foundation, The National Defense University, The American Enterprise Institute, The Americas Formum, The Foreign Policy Research Institute, the USIA, many major financial, oil, and defense corporations, and whose President and CEO, George Folsom was a member of the Cheney-Bush Transition Team! You're right! That's as non-partisan as they come! This is a bunch of people who, as a whole, have never been accused of trying to skew information to fit their goals.

Cherry Pie for Everyone!

So, why are you acting so defensive, peter, my friend? Things are going great! The military is doing fine with its goals--you've said so yourself. The only reason they're inviting old soldiers back at their original rank, with a signing bonus of up to $19,000, is because, well, they miss those guys. It's NOT because goals aren't being met, and they're losing their most qualified personnel because this war on 'intense, overpowering fear' (the definition of terror)is going poorly.

And I know that actually providing links to your points is beneath you, but I'm still not at that level, so I'll still provide what those nasty ol' meany liberals in the press and academia call "attribution," and give everyone access to the information I'm using:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10257413/

Sure, keep coming back, peter! I was just afraid that all this typing was getting in the way of your masturbation time.

Yeharr means we're friends!

Yeharr

5:58 AM, November 30, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

how'd you know i was a chronic masturbator (is it masturbater or masturbator? i'm too busy wanking it to find out!)you been spying on me again?

well, despite your best impression of the tasmanian devil balloon, i find your ramblings quite frightening.

instead of taking cnn or msnbc's word, why not the iraqi people? they're the ones turning up at the pols in record numbers. despite the danger of being blown to smithereens.

no, but balloon knows better. depite the population of those iraqis making history, all is lost in iraq. how is this happening? ignore the data and ask balloon, 'cause he knows!

and just 'cause we're friends now, i still wouldn't sell you a gun. you're worse than howard dean on a bad day...

6:49 AM, November 30, 2005  
Blogger Balloon Pirate said...

Thank you peter! I agree with you and you insult me! Nice. Great way to exchange ideas. I'm sorry if I upset you so much that you have to get personal. I was under the impression that this sort of thing was just below providing attribution for your points on your contempt list.

Election turnout is high. Great. So, apparantly, is torture. You seem to be implying that the torture is OK, just so long as people get out and vote? Is that your position? Great. Not one that I would choose, but, despite what you seem to think, I'm not really an expert on these things like you are. I only read a bunch of articles, take the entirety of the context, and formulate my own opinion. Sometimes I post stuff here, and when I do, I try to provide attribution so that people won't think I'm just pulling this stuff out of my ass.

Listen to the iraqi people, eh? OK. Should we listen to them directly, or through a poll provided by a quasi-governmental group run by a FOG (FOG=Friend of George. So appropos, I wonder why it's not in more common usage)?

Where would we find an Iraqi voice to listen to?

Phil? Got any ideas where we might find someone who might give us an Iraqi viewpoint?

Because, frankly, I'm stumped.

Is this too rambling for you, peter?

BOO!

sorry. didn't mean to scare you.

Yeharr

7:34 AM, November 30, 2005  
Blogger boni said...

I do take the Iraqi people at their word. That's why I check out the Riverbend blog Pete. Something I encourage you to do. Have you looked at optruth.org? Probably not.
And I, too am proud of the people who are turning up at the polls. I know there a good Iraqis who want their country to be whole. But, as long as there are death squads masquerading as Iraqi soldiers, as long as secular professionals are being kidnapped and murdered, as long as Iraqi leaders think Iraqis have a legitimate right to resist our being there, as long as the U.S. military places propoganda in the Iraqi papers (see the LA Times article today), as long as reconstruction and those profits are in the hands of the U.S. companies and not Iraqi companies, Democracy is a long way off for that country. And, if their elections are as "verifiable" as ours, their voting may not mean much at all...

And finally, this quote from CNN regarding the Christian Peacemaker Teams who've had people in Iraq since 2002 and just recently had four members kidnapped:

“We are angry because what has happened to our teammates is the result of the actions of the U.S. and U.K. government due to the illegal attack on Iraq and the continuing occupation and oppression of its people,”
“We are some of the few internationals left in Iraq who are telling the truth about what is happening to the Iraqi people,” the statement said. “We hope that we can continue to do this work and we pray for the speedy release of our beloved teammates.”

Daniel,
I agree wholeheartedly with you about the Sudan. I'm appalled at what's happening there. Why isn't the U.S. more involved? Nothing to profit from, I suppose. This big, so-called Christian nation could care less about the murders and the rapes. My biggest complaint about Iraq is that it took focus away from Afghanistan when we should have stayed the course there and fought the real enemy.

7:34 AM, November 30, 2005  
Blogger Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Can I also add that the rest of the fucking shitty world is standign by and lettign Sudan and Afghanistan and Iraq happen so please don't think this is US bashing. Far from it.

Fuck it, I'm going to Africa next Summer and lending a hand.

7:49 AM, November 30, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

the old chap from england has been making the most sense i've heard. you've gotta give it to the brits, even when their's disagreement, they always look ahead for solutions. and daniel has stated his views so clearly, it's like crystal...

thank you daniel for being so calm in your approach. it's that typical english straight forward thing. no hysterics. that's why the islamo-fascists were quite distraught after the london bombings: how can they kick these guys off their game? well guess what, the i.r.a. did a lot worse, and the brits still stand.

and daniel also states that his feelings aren't just another anti-american rant. this was refreshing and shocking to my ears as i call much of what is posted here, anti-american.

but, the same can't be said for daniel...

good on you daniel.

9:44 AM, November 30, 2005  
Blogger boni said...

Peter,
How dare you accuse those who use their American right of dissent as being anti-American. That's what you guys always do. Just because we don't buy into the propoganda that this administration flings about like so much monkey shit. You are useless. I'm not wasting anymore time on you.

10:16 AM, November 30, 2005  
Blogger Balloon Pirate said...

peter is an expert in the use of problematic mendacity. I wrote on that way back this summer:

1) Don't dispute the facts, dispute the fact-finder. Paint the person, group or organization as unpatriotic.

2) Keep the attention somewhere else. Anywhere else. Keep moving, keep moving. Always have another initiative to drag out for the media. Always have a baby to hold.

3) Buy the media. Or, better yet, have someone who likes you buy it for you. Get bloviating blowhards to declare themselves 'regular Joes' and 'no-spin' commentators, and have them help you with #1, above.

4) Never, ever answer other people's questions. If you get a question you don't like rephrase the question to your liking and then answer your own question, making sure to act like a) You've actually answered the original question, and b)the person asking the question is an idiot.


Admittedly, not all of that fits him. He has no initiatives. Hell, he can't even formulate an opinion of his own. And I doubt that he could buy a media outlet and afford his pron subscription, so count him out on that. Although he does fit nicely into the 'bloviating blowhard' category.

(a bloviating blowhard is a pompous windbag, peter. That's what I'm calling you. You may consider it an insult. I merely consider it an apt description. To-MAY-to, to-MAH-to.)

At any rate, he'll be back. He thinks he's clever. He thinks he's scoring points.

I, too, would vote him off the island.

Yeharr

11:32 AM, November 30, 2005  
Blogger boni said...

Daniel,

I didn't mean to get distracted by what you said about volunteering to go to Africa. All of us need to take some personal responsiblity about what happens in the world.
We all just can't keep plugging in our ipods and turning our backs on the problems. I've been working with the African Millenium Foundation. They loan micro-credit loans to women in Africa and help them get started with businesses. Sometimes the loans are only $100. But the women devise all sorts of businesses and pretty soon the whole village is involved and doing well. I admire your resolve to go to Africa.

11:54 AM, November 30, 2005  
Blogger Cranky Yankee said...

Pater quoted someone else saying, "...47% of Iraqis polled said their country was headed in the right direction,"

This is actually pretty scary. The roughly 47% that makes up the Shia majority likes the chance to get revenge on the Sunnis and to have their Islamic republic. It doesn't surprise me that they think Iraq is headed in the right direction.

Daniel, I agree with you to the extent that we, the U.S., need to change our direction from war-making to peace making. Peace talks are a good start. Get the Iraqis to decided what they want to do with their country. It might take a while but during that time we should be drawing down troop levels comensurate with pursuing peace not war.

At some point we can no longer justify pounding democracy into the middle east with military power.

3:35 PM, November 30, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

yes, balloon, i am a to-MAH-to, completely agree with you.

however, i'm not sure about the pompous part of your statement. windbag, yes. pompous... gee, i dunno, i think someone would have to have at least a little bit of initiative to be pompous, wouldn't you agree?

"He thinks he's clever. He thinks he's scoring points."

actually balloon, as i've stated many times, i don't think i'm clever, nor do i think i'm scoring points. you guys easily stick absurd words in my mouth (including i must agree with torture... okay... whatever)

i merely stated that daniel is quite eloquent, and you, my friend, sound like an anti-american windbag. i didn't want to use your name in particular, but you forced my hand. balloon.

it seems that in balloon's world the planet's problems can be placed on one country: america.

i think that common sense dissent is good. have i not on this website criticized this government? called things like the miers nomination an atrocity, smacking of cronyism?

do i think everything is going "cool" in iraq? no.

but do i think we should cut and run like (hot-air)balloon? no.

do i think all the problems of the world can be laid at the feet of america a la cranky and balloon? no.

is america perfect? no.

is it the greatest democracy on this planet? with all it's faults? most certainly.

4:52 PM, November 30, 2005  
Blogger Cranky Yankee said...

Ah...We're not a democracy, dude. Last I checked we were a Contitutional Republic. Democracy is more of a myth than Communism.

7:24 PM, November 30, 2005  
Blogger Balloon Pirate said...

once again, please observe the expert at probematic mendacity at his work:

1) Don't dispute the facts, dispute the fact-finder. Paint the person, group or organization as unpatriotic.

from peter's post: it seems that in balloon's world the planet's problems can be placed on one country: america

4) Never, ever answer other people's questions. If you get a question you don't like rephrase the question to your liking and then answer your own question, making sure to act like a) You've actually answered the original question, and b)the person asking the question is an idiot.

From peter's comment: but do i think we should cut and run like (hot-air)balloon? no.

I've never said cut-and-run. Do I think we should get our troops out of there? Absolutely. Right now, the question is less if we leave or even when we leave, but how.

So, what we have here is a guy who, in the name of 'spirited debate,' has regularly insulted all three of the regular contributors of this blog, and called two of us unamerican.

All the while stating that we're the ones doing the insulting.

I'm surprised Bush hasn't pinned a medal of freedom on him.

consistency is so important peter; thank you for always being an asshole.

ya see, petey, I'm not a balloon--I'm a pirate. I steal the hot air from windbags like you.

Yeharr

8:14 PM, November 30, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

ok

4:28 AM, December 01, 2005  
Blogger Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Oh God.

Peter thinks I'm on his side.

Little does he know that I'm an Islamo-Facist...

*evil laugh and rub hands in glee*

5:16 AM, December 01, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

never said you were "on (my) side." all i said was you made sense.

how shortly lived that was.

oh well.

7:06 AM, December 01, 2005  
Blogger Cranky Yankee said...

I love the term "islamo-fascism" it's such bullshit.

Islam and Fascism are diametrically opposed. But then again the wingnuts who use it care little for definitions and assume all dictators, totalitarians and oligarchs must be Fascists. It is nothing more than an epitaph with which one would tar those who oppose them.

Fascism is a far right pro-business totalitarian ideology in which dissent is crushed and the public is influenced through government propaganda. Fascism and religion tolerate each other as long as one doesn't interfere with the other.

The American Heritage Dictionary describes it as "A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism."
Wiki

4:04 PM, December 01, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

so you ignore the history between the nazi party and the muslim brotherhood, which later fractured into al qaeda. so, i repeat:

25 years ago the muslim brotherhood was a fascist organization that was hired by western intelligence. this brotherhood developed into what we now know as al qaeda...

... the founder of this organization was an egyptian, al bana. in the 1920's, being a great admirer of hitler, often writing him, he formed this national group the muslim brotherhood and in the '30's al bana and his brotherhood became a secret arm of nazi intelligence...

they had a lot in common the nazi arabs and the nazi. they still do:

They hated Jews; they hated democracy; and they hated the Western culture. it became the official policy of the Third Reich to secretly develop the muslim brotherhood as the fifth Parliament, an army inside egypt.

after the war the Brits sold the arab nazis to the predecessor of what became the CIA. It may sound stupid, Cranky, especially to someone so enlightened as yourself; it may sound evil, but it did happen. the idea was that we were going to use the Arab Nazis in the Middle East as a counterweight to the Arab communists. before you hop all over this hysterically screaming that america is sick for this deal, can't you see we were counter weighing the Soviet Union and it's funding of the Arab communists? we kept the Muslim Brotherhood on our payroll. you'll probably only see a dark side to this agreement, but lemme remind you cranky hindsight is 20/20, especially in your case...

during the 1950's, the CIA moved the Muslim Brotherhood to Saudi Arabia. Here is where Azzam and some of his other bros became the teachers in the Madrasas, the religious schools. And there they combined the doctrines of nazism with this weird Islamic cult, Wahhabiism. is this sounding familiar, Cranky? Ringing a bell? No... okay, I'll continue...

In 1979 the CIA decided to take the arab nazis out of cold storage. The russians had invaded afghanistan, so we told the Saudis that we would fund them if they would bring all of the arab nazis together and ship them off to afghanistan to fight the Russians. we had to rename them. We changed their name to "Maktab al Khidimat il Mujahideen", the MAK...

and we now know that the CIA lied to congress, said they didn't know who was on our payroll in afghanistan, except the saudis. kinda true, but like you, the truth had lots of shades of ambiguity...

azzam and his right hand fella, a tall, ugly creature named osama bin laden rose to the top from '79 and '89. they won the war, beat the ruskies (being a semi-commie yourself- i believe you said something about a nader-kerry type being your ideal candidate- that must sting, no?).

after the win, our prob was we said foolishly, "we won," and we went home, leaving these fascists to fester in the hot desert sun... (oh wait, why am i rambling about fascism? oh wait, that's right, they are fascists!)

so internal war began: saudis cut deals, bribed the bin ladenster to stay out of saudi arabia. the mak broke off into two groups, the binster himself supposedly knocked off his pal azzam and in and around this time he took the most radical of the mergerer between the arab fascists and the religious extremists and called them al qaeda...

sorry about this rambling and unfocused post. i guess you're right, there's no comparison between my wild accusation that nazi germany and al qaeda are similar in so many, many ways. you're right cranky. my bad. time to pour myself a drink...

4:34 PM, December 01, 2005  
Blogger Cranky Yankee said...

Technically the Nazi weren't Fascists.

And just because you quote someone who has a very strange take on history doesn't make it true. That is why I gnored ot last time. It's mostly garbage.

Please cite your source.

6:30 PM, December 01, 2005  
Blogger Cranky Yankee said...

(being a semi-commie yourself- i believe you said something about a nader-kerry type being your ideal candidate- that must sting, no?).

What is that supposed to mean, you lowlife lying repug punk.

6:31 PM, December 01, 2005  
Blogger Cranky Yankee said...

You know Pete, I tried to treat you with respect. I actually felt bad for you. My gut tells me you are very young and not very well read. Borderline retarded possibly. I also took it easy on you because you claim to be a veteran. But I now see that is another one of your fantasies.

You make shit up and try to pass it off as some sort of revealed truth. You quote all kinds of crap and try to sell it as proof of your case. Well your lying and ignorance has gotten you nowhere. Your lies, especially about being a veteran, are now obvious. No one takes you seriously since you are obviously a fat little pimply face high school kid who has no real world. If you are so sure of yourself start your own blog and see how much traffic you get. You're a chickenshit who lurks anonymously and drops bombs when he feels a need to vent.

If you had ever been in the military you would know how ignorant you sound in regard to the middle east. The most basic theater orientation refutes almost every case you make.

Also, your arguments are very poorly formed. You display a misunderstanding your own arguments by using tangentially supporting bogus information that actually leads away from your case. You refuse to cite sources because you are afraid to have their validity tested. They sound good to you and that should be a warning.

You are trite, empty and your world, even at your young age, is a sad place. Go find a friend, a girlfriend or boyfriend, anything and try to interact with the world. You are socially stunted and mentally feeble. You use volume and retort when logic and initiative are called for. You are a propagandists dream. A weak, angry small intellect with a big mouth.

6:51 PM, December 01, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

this is, once again, another of your projections cranky. but that's ok, my fat butt can take it...

i've stated all of my sources, not sure why you'd say any different...

jeez, the muslim brotherhood and its history really hit a nerve with you, sent you on a rampage...

... want to learn more about the history of the muslim brotherhood? there's this thing called google. try it. a thousand sources will come up for you...

... if not, your local library should have some things called.... oh, what are they called again? Oh! that's right, books!

and as far as starting my own blog, as i've already stated, i'm neither smart enuff or interesting enuff to do so. either that, or my intellectual ego is terrified going up against the likes of you...

2:12 AM, December 02, 2005  
Blogger Cranky Yankee said...

Idiots like peter never cite their sources and then say they do.

3:51 AM, December 02, 2005  
Blogger Cranky Yankee said...

The fact that you think the Muslim Brotherhood was a Nazi organization because they, like the Nazi's, hated jews shows your ignorance. They cooperated with the Nazis against the British much like al qaeda cooperated with us against the Russians. Moron.

Also, I can see why you not want to admit cutting and pasting articles from http://www.global-elite.org/. Although the article you constantly rip-off is a far fetched tin foil hat new world order crap, if you had read the whole article you would see that it makes the point that western influence, vis a vis proxy groups, have led to the trouble in the middle east.

I know it was the Illuminati!
Get your tin foil hat, quick!

4:11 AM, December 02, 2005  
Blogger Cranky Yankee said...

You are also betrayed by the fact that you are quoting John Loftus. His theories have been widely denied by the U.S. Gov't, in spite of his experience as a US prosecutor. His stories are plausible enough and in a general sense are accurate. But what you take away - Al Qaeda = Nazi and somehow = Fascist is illogical, but expected from the likes of you. You, as usually, cherry pick one piece of the story and disregard the rest.

His story, which you freely quote from FrontpageMag makes my case that western interference since the discovery of oil in the Middle East from Britain, Germany and YES, the U.S. has lead to the terrorist situation, but you failed to get that. His basic thesis is that the U.S. and Britain sold out the Jews. You missed that didn't you. His book, from which you quoted is called, "How Western Intelligence Betrayed the Jewish People."

Your limited intelligence told you that you had delivered proof positive, of what I'm not sure. I actually laughed. What you delivered was a display of your inability to understand a subject in its whole, an inability to verify what you read and your overall ignorance in matters of world history.

You really should crawl back into your hole and shout "U.S.A U.S.A." at Sean Hannity when he is on a rant that you seem to like so much.

FrontPage Article
A review of Loftus' book
Here is an article from Loftus in which he talks about Wahhabism, which you called, "this weird Islamic cult" again displaying your ignorance. It is in fact centuries old and is the dominant faith in Saudi Arabia.

So unlike you of little intellect, I am providing some sources. Maybe you'll read them and see how ignorant you are.

I think the disassembly is complete for Pete's sake.
Gestalt!

4:53 AM, December 02, 2005  
Blogger Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

If I make as much sense at Peter I am very worried.

HELP ME!

9:28 AM, December 02, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

no daniel, you're fine. i don't make sense, you do. that's what i was saying. so, calm down, dear boy.

cranky, i'm going to try and decipher your rant. what's your point again? that the muslim brotherhood isn't a fascist/religious mix?

that the brotherhood fractured and lead by your pal bin laden didn't become al qaeda?

i'm not sure what your point is, dear crankster. but, with my dim wit, i'm sure i'll understand in a year or two.

cranky, the projectionist...

10:05 AM, December 02, 2005  
Blogger Cranky Yankee said...

Of course you're not sure. You're not sure of anything. All you know is that this site has the word Democrat in its title so you think you have to disagree. Unfortunately you are not bright enough to maintain your logical focus and end up talking yourself in a circle that ultimately makes the opposing point. Keep trying you might be able to circle back around and say something you actually agree with.

You might start to understnad if you get some education. I took two courses 20+ years ago at Emory that were required. Comparative Government and Comparative Religion. I still have the texts and refer to them frequently. You ought to try to find something like that. I'm sure there is a junior college you could get into or your high school might offer such course.

To say that "the brotherhood fractured" would be to say that it existed as a worldwide cohesive organization which it did not. The Musilm Brotherhood, as it were, represented an ideology and a set of methods to commit and support activities geared toward those ends each individual group adherents or followers hoped to affect. It is not a stretch to see that Al Qaeda borrowed and built upon the existing local infrastructure built by "Brotherhood" adhering local groups in the various countries they are said to be active. But again, to classify Al Qaeda as a cohesive global terrorist organization is to grossly misunderstand them too.

To your question. The Muslim Brotherhood, in any of its many forms, has never been Fascist. Religiously fanatic? Absolutely. Fascist, not even by a peter-built stretch of illogic.

10:51 AM, December 02, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

ok... lemme get this straight:

"It is not a stretch to see that Al Qaeda borrowed and built upon the existing local infrastructure built by "Brotherhood" adhering local groups in the various countries they are said to be active."

borrowed? are you being serious?

lemme ask you this, and please, refer to your notes, hope they're documented etc., etc... so osama was part of some group, not specific, of course, just like, ya know, this thing, an unspecific organization, called the muslim brotherhood that fought against the russians in afghanistan with a not real history with the nazi party of germany and not really an affiliation with the nazi party of germany. they were what? just fans?this was more a what...? tribal group, instead of a cohesive army/organization. just, ya know, flung together?

and so, like, i guess ya know, usmama bein' the, what? unspecific terrorist he is, created his own cult-like unspecific organization that just "borrowed" from the other unspecified unorganized oragnization? not fractured of course, no... not developed internally in the unspecified muslim brotherhood and broke off to start it's own uncohesive unorganized organization, no, of course not!

your disorganized ramblings are beginning to make sense cranky!

and i like the way you completely dismiss the history between the nazi party of germany and the brotherhood.

try and put your stuff thru the blender again, next time it may make sense.

and, please, for the last time, cranky, stop projecting your paranoid anx on me...

12:30 PM, December 02, 2005  
Blogger Cranky Yankee said...

"anx" says it all. Did you mean angst? Moron.

You can't even read either. For you to take that away from what I wrote makes you an obvious ass... or a retard.

1:41 PM, December 02, 2005  
Blogger Cranky Yankee said...

Your question was, "what's your point again? that the muslim brotherhood isn't a fascist/religious mix?"

Religious, yes. Fascist, no?

Do you know what Fascism is? Do you understand the a religious organization can never be Fascist by its very definition? Now if you were to say dictatorial or totalitarian you would have a case. They were not "commies" or "socialists" either.

Go take a class and come back when you are more informed, educated, or according to your twisted Fox News mind, liberally indoctrinated.

1:55 PM, December 02, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

anx, thru, ect, lol, abbr./colq

and once again, cranky, stop proj'n...

what you said was long winded with no point whatsoever...

your references are "20+" years outta date. you haven't answered any of my questions, then you put words in my mouth, most recently:

"To say that "the brotherhood fractured" would be to say that it existed as a worldwide cohesive organization which it did not."

cranky, your game is semantix (or is that semantics, that's another one that baffles me). i mean, what are you trying to say in this quote? what's your foundation for saying it? and how does this prove that the brotherhood and al qaeda are not fascists, when history proves you wrong?

you're a child cranky. you double-talk around every issue and then blow up in a tantrum when your facts, are at best, misguided.

like i said, put that crap you wrote earlier into a blender and maybe next time it'll make sense.

or take your anx, crawl into a fetal postion and when you think you can play nice, you'll be allowed out again. okay? okay...

2:03 PM, December 02, 2005  
Blogger Cranky Yankee said...

The funniest part of your whole "Brotherhood" argument, which really doesn't make sense, is that time you claim they were "fractured", during and after the Afghan war, was in fact the time when they reached perhaps, if any, the point of most international cohesion. So your point is?

Ayman Al-Zawahiri, Osama Bin Laden and Adullah Azzam were all adherents to Muslim Brotherhood. Muslim Brotherhood actually exists in many Muslim countries as legal recognized political parties. There is no central Muslim Brotherhood headquarters. just like there is no central Al Qaeda headquarters. I can't believe you didn't know that. Sheesh.

If members, influential or not, worked for the Nazis, the CIA, the IBPO or whoever does not mean they hold their same ideologies. By your logic their association with the CIA, being the most recent, would hold that they are free market capitalists republicans like reagan who hired them...

Your logic blows.

2:21 PM, December 02, 2005  
Blogger Cranky Yankee said...

History and the definition of Fascism prove they are not.
I have nothing to do with it.

You haven't shown otherwise. Saying that an organization linked to members of Al Qaeda may have spied for the Nazis in WWII does not prove that Al Qaeda are Fascist. You ask me to prove a negative. I ask you to prove your point, which you never have. Quoting right wing hate dogma isn't proving a point.

I quote 20+ year old out of date references? But it's ok for you to quote 50 year old claims? Nice consistency, asswipe.

You are sadly a simpleton who listens to too much hate radio and Fox news. That shit rots your brain man...

2:30 PM, December 02, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

you feel comfortable when you project, cranky. you've shown time and again that you're a little agressive loser that's watched rambo: first blood part two too many times...

you wish, so wish that i was a fox listener/watcher as you've claimed so many times in your previous posts. and you've wasted a lot of time and energy trying to peg me into a comfortable pigeon hole. and it cranks up cranky when you still can't solve me. you don't know if i'm male or female, white, or black, american or english. and what does it matter? to me little. to you, everything. because when you think you can finally compartmentalize someone, you don't feel scared anymore.

don't be scared cranky...

and anyways, who's the idiot here? the guy who keeps calling the other guy an idiot yet feels the need to endlessly debate him with his propaganda? or the person this guy claims is an idiot?

2:57 PM, December 02, 2005  
Blogger Cranky Yankee said...

"listen cranky, gotta tell you, i don't think w is the second coming or anything. but, i can't vote for the alternative. and there's plenty of us white, male, homophobes, sexist, misogynists, anti-semetic, anti-muslim, anti-life, anti-god, anti-devil, anti-freedom and all the other sterotypes we've been tagged with, republicans who feel the same..."

I'll let you answer that question.

3:28 PM, December 02, 2005  
Blogger Cranky Yankee said...

We on the left can no longer stand by and allow right wing wind bags to spout voluminous bullshit. Your unresearched, unsupported, false and ultimately ignorant positions will be challenged. You can't shout us down.

That is why I am on you. People have been telling me to ignore you and that you are dragging me down into the muck with you. So be it. Let's slug it out. I'm a fighter. I've always been, even when I was conservative many moons ago, and I always will be.

3:34 PM, December 02, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

oh c'mon cranky, you can do better than that, can't you?

you're not making sense. you quote me, what does that mean?

do you know what self-deprecation is?

or, better: do you see you feel comfortable with these labels?

c'mon cranky.... and what is it you actually want me to answer?

jeez, cranky, i'm really sorry, but... that was so pathetic. you call me every name in the book, and you choose a quote that has a double edged sword:

self deprecation

and;

showing the labels you feel comfortable using. because, as i said, you label and compartmentalize, then you feel more secure, less scared...

3:35 PM, December 02, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

that's fine, cranky.

but once again, you're projecting: i'm not shouting you down.

the opposite can be said, in fact.

3:38 PM, December 02, 2005  
Blogger Cranky Yankee said...

of course...it's a joke...you didn't mean it...

Doesn't Al Franken have a book out now called The Truth with Jokes, or something like that.

I can only judge you by what you say and who you quote. When the basis of your entire argument is an article from Frontpage magazine or a quote from Max Boot you pidgeon hole yourself.

Don't get me wrong, Max Boot is the Neocon I hate to hate. I find him a well spoken and very likebale person. He is intelligent and well read. Unfortunately he is on the side of evil.

3:52 PM, December 02, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

cranky, stop putting words in my mouth:

it's called self-deprecation. Look it up. also, do you honestly believe i think this of myself, or anyone? if you do, grow up, pal. or if this is actually a position you're taking, i know you cranky, you can't honestly believe in it.

you just can't bring yourself to admit that you can't peg me. your frustration is evident. look over everything you have said, the explosions you've released...

maxwell smart, i mean boot, or whoever else, i've also quoted democratic senators, dicky morris and others.

please cranky, you're a wall being crankily cracked. let's just get on to the next subject and if you stop compartmentalizing and projecting, i assure you, you'll be a lot happier and focused...

and, i thought you godless types didn't believe in "evil."

4:23 PM, December 02, 2005  
Blogger Cranky Yankee said...

Me thinks thou doth protest too much.

Are you saying you are not any of these, "and there's plenty of us white, male, homophobes, sexist, misogynists, anti-semetic, anti-muslim, anti-life, anti-god, anti-devil, anti-freedom and all the other sterotypes we've been tagged with, republicans "

Are you any of them? If you leave it for us to judge from your writing, then you are some of those, not all. I haven't heard anything outright anti-devil from you.

Why would you want to hide who you are? Be proud of who you are. Quit running from it. Or is it that deep down inside you know you don't feel good about it.

4:51 PM, December 02, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

your first line: projection...

#2: what'd you think, and more importanly, why is it important? i've already answered that: it gives you security

#3: puhleeeeze. as i said, who or what i am means nothing in the space of ideas. why is it so important to you? oh, that's right, i've answered that already: it gives you the metaphorical tit to suck on. your security. your bravery. anyone outside of these lines is such an anomaly it scares you. you would like that i'm a "foxer." but i can answer with all confidence, i'm not. you wish i support hannity and o'reilly. i can't 'cause i've never watched nor listened, not once. so that makes you far more a viewer of fox than me.

do i read front page. yeah. i also read this blog. as well as others.

hey cranky: am i fat or skinny? in between? muscular? east coast, west coast, tupac or cole porter? i mean really, why do you care.

goes back to my original point, you need it to feel safe.

and really, has it come to this? let's move on, shall we? or shall i continue ripping apart your very id, ego and super ego. your anima and animus?

shall i throw in a few more speeling erors so u can fill big and confeedent? or shall i accuse you of being an ignormaus for your recent (among others) errors:

"Your unresearched..."

see cranky, i could have gone after you long before now, but i chose not to.

what's your excuse?

5:03 PM, December 02, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

hey cranky: i know you love history and everything. so, i.d. these quotes for me, will ya? (first one's a little tricky, too short, not enuff info. however, if you were me, who would say this):

"'(The president) lied us into war'"?

and

'"(The president)lied us into war because he lacked the political courage to lead us into it."'

c'mon now...

... you'll probably check google. however, let's see if you can sift thru all the rotten wood that has spouted such nonsense thru the decades, and maybe you'll not only see the power of these words, but to see the folly of your ways and arguments. You think you're saying anything new? (and that is a wonderfully huge gift to you and the i.d. of the speaker...)

5:56 PM, December 02, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

... and you say they don't want to spread their ideology:

”A proselytizing religion cannot stand still. It can either expand or contract. Islam endeavors to expand in Britain. … Islam is a universal religion. It aims at bringing its message to all corners of the earth. It hopes that one day the whole of humanity will be one Muslim community, the Umma. As we know the history of Islam as a faith is also the history of a state and a community of believers living by divine law. The Muslims, jurists and theologians, have always expounded Islam as both Government and a faith. This reflects the historical fact that Muslims, from the start, lived under their own law. Muslim theologians naturally produced a theology with this in view – it is a theology of the majority. Being a minority was not seriously considered or even contemplated. … Muslim theology offers, up to the present, no systematic formulation of the status of being in a minority.”

-Zaki Badawi, “Islam in Britain”
www,isic-centre.org

i know i've given you a lot cranky, but, c'mon you're a fighter! put this (fill in your label here) in his place and kick ass, soldier!

6:03 PM, December 02, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

... that's what i thought...

anyhow cranky, just wasted eighty minutes of my life watching a film that in a sick and twisted manner has more patriotism in its little "ball" than you have in your entire body...

... sad as it is, there's more patriot in "duece bigalow, european gigolo" in all of what you have ever said.

in fact, the crass and vulgar flick said more about being an american, european, canadian and whore then you could wish for. and believe me, the movie was not worth aspiring to and says a lot more about your lack of love (in more than one way) than you can imagine...

7:55 PM, December 02, 2005  
Blogger Cranky Yankee said...

Your unresearched.....? It works perfectly in that sentence. But then again, you haven't shown yourself to be a master of english.

Deuce Bigolo? that is your measure of patriotism. It must be to much for me to understand. You are such and enigma. I wonder why your bar is set so low.

I see you really value your free time. What happened, mommie thought it would be cute. Are you grounded?

3:54 AM, December 03, 2005  
Blogger Cranky Yankee said...

What color is the sky in your world? Do you really think anyone here spends a minute trying to figure you out? We like having you hear. It gives us something to laugh at. That is a very immature, weak and poorly developed ego at work there. I use you like a warm up.

If you are trying to appear "deep' then you are missing the mark.

I take you at you words. They display opinions and attitude not backed by experience or knowledge.

If you don't want to be pidgeon holed as a fox news hate radio ditto head, then stop talking and behaving like one. I still don't get the part where you don't show your true self. Are you saying the you lie here? That this is all a made up facade? At first I thought you were someone else I know having a little fun playing the ditto head. But he wouldn't say some of the stupid things you say.

4:27 AM, December 03, 2005  
Blogger Cranky Yankee said...

Who said they don't want to spread their ideology? A basic characteristic of any religion is its innate manifest destiny to propagate.

That article states very clearly what I have been saying right along. The vast majority of Muslims reject proselytizing at the end of a gun. Don't think of it as a mission of military conquest, but more like the Mormon missionaries. They spread their message throughout the world in order to bring people into the light. In their perfect world everyone chooses to become a Muslim and then through social processes government and religion become one. It's a utopian model in which one envisions the best possible solution and neglects to apply human failure, much like Communism, Socialism and Democracy.

Back to my original point from many threads. Al Qaeda is not interested in making the U.S.A. a Muslim country or part of their great Muslim empire. Their aim is to stop our influence in the Arab world, remove those who they perceive as regional puppet regimes, expel us from the Holy land and render us incapable or unwilling to interfere in Arab affairs again. Through all you bizarre tangential rambling you have neglected to even address that point.

The site you link is an excellent resource for both side of the question. www.isic-centre.org. Although it mainly focuses on Europe you need to spend some time there. I'm sure you will focus on the articles that support your warped world view, but I would suggest reading other views in an effort to better round your 'opinions.'

5:37 AM, December 03, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

"We like having you hear."

another mistake cranky.

"Deuce Bigolo? that is your measure of patriotism."

no, these were my words:

"... sad as it is, there's more patriot in "duece bigalow, european gigolo" in all of what you have ever said.

"in fact, the crass and vulgar flick said more about being an american, european, canadian and whore then you could wish for. and believe me, the movie was not worth aspiring to and says a lot more about your lack of love (in more than one way) than you can imagine..."

but, once again, you feel more comfortable putting words in my mouth. you're really getting pathetic now, cranky...

"Do you really think anyone here spends a minute trying to figure you out? We like having you hear. It gives us something to laugh at. That is a very immature, weak and poorly developed ego at work there. I use you like a warm up.

"If you are trying to appear "deep' then you are missing the mark."

as i said, identity has no real importance to me, i'm exchanging free ideas. i never said anyone but you has been trying to figure me out. you've spent alot of time on this, your words evident of your obsession and your failure. you're a joke.

and, of course, you've failed at identifying the quote from up top. that would've been an interesting argument. watch you stumble around in your darkness and ignorance having to face the fact that these anti-war slogans have been slung around from even before you were born (another hint, crankster).

and as far as being compatmentalized by you, i couldn't care less if you think i'm a fox wing-nut. i find it amusing. everytime you suggest i'm something i'm not, it just reveals your pathetic frustration, your tremendous need to have me fit that pigeon hole you've created.

are we going to move on yet, or continue with the mud slinging? take a breath, cranky, is this worth the heart attack you're having? you're like an open book to me and all you can say about me is: you're an idiot, a hannitty blah, blah, blah... is it worth it cranky? or do you wanna go back to watching rambo for the 600th time, repeating the lines along with stallone, safe and comfortable in your hovel? i know that your hostility at your country, at your president (please don't say the usual: "he's not my preseident!") is a deep hatred at an authority figure. probably your pappy. a lot of you guys have the same problem. and now you lash out at everyone with a different opinion.

shall we continue cranky? or move on?

6:09 AM, December 03, 2005  
Blogger Balloon Pirate said...

Move on, Cranky. He's called you anti American. He can't admit he's wrong--he so deep into the lie that it's impossible for his tiny brain to process it. It's the last bastion of the GOP little minds.

Let him spew his hateful bile, pray that his Mom's taken away all the sharp objects, and watch him writhe and scream in impotent rage.

Yeharr

7:57 AM, December 03, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

listen to balloon, cranky. he's right. this is your easy way out. it'll make you look good.

and by the way balloon, what am i supposed to admit? how wrong i was about what?

have you read the posts balloon? or are you just seeing what you want to see?

and my mommy doesn't have to take away any sharp objects, there's corks on the ends of all the knives and forks at home which i suck on 'cause i need a constant pacifier.

god, you guys are ridiculous.

8:09 AM, December 03, 2005  
Blogger Cranky Yankee said...

You have a point ballon. I guess the bully in me likes slapping him around.

It's so funny if you go back and look at all his arguments here with you, phil and me it's all the same thing.

"Don't put words in my mouth."
"You are angry"
"You are rambling"
"Projection" (I know you are but what am I?)
"I'm not who you think I am or appear to be."
"I have answered your questions."
"Why haven't you answered mine?"

He seems to be obsessed with fetal positions, knickers and sucking on things. Hmmm... He is also oddly concerned with hiding anything personal while we all have opened up freely. He definitely has something to hide. Very strange, it's almost like its an act. But an act would have at least been thought through.

10:30 AM, December 03, 2005  
Blogger Cranky Yankee said...

"We like having you hear." No mistake there. It just went over your head.

You are wrong in so many ways. Shall we..

Shrubco did lie.
Congress, GOP and Dem, was duped.
Islam isn't the problem.
Outdated imperialist dogma is the problem.
Al Qaeda does not want to take over the world.
Al Qaeda is not Fascist because members of the Muslim Brotherhood provided intel to Rommel during WWII.
You don't know what Fascist means.
Al Qaeda is not the reincarnation of the Muslim brotherhood.
You are a fox hate radio ditto head.
You have an identity crisis.
Your life is grounded in fear.
"Projection" - is your way of saying, "I know you are but what am I."
You haven't answered anybody's questions.
You are not a mystery.
You counter arguments with tangential factoids.
Deuce Bigolo is not a measure of patriotism.
You don't like to debate, you like to "hear" your own voice.
The First Rambo was a good movie, the second one sucked.
I actually pray for people like you.
70% of the people who rely on Fox News for their information have the basic facts wrong.
There was no gathering threat from Saddam.
Godless people do believe in evil. Look in the mirror.
You are not deep.
If I keep you occupied here you are not derailing other discussions.
As you age you will find that people are generally good and should not be feared.
America isn't always right.
You are being manipulated and haven't realized it.
Sometimes old microwaved ideas, like social security, are good ones.
True Muslims want peace.
True Americans want peace.
We are a stronger, better nation when we put the "better angels of our nature" on display.
Hegemony is not survival.
Pax Romanus lead to the destruction of Rome.
It's "angst."
Johnson lied about the Gulf of Tonkin.
You have used the same attacks against bp, phil and me.
You have an obsession with the fetal position and knickers.
Nobody wants you to agree with them.
You are problematic mendacity.
You have not won any debates here.
Every word you type makes me look good.
Obey GIANT!
Pwn3d!


Have agood one PM!

10:34 AM, December 03, 2005  
Blogger Balloon Pirate said...

well then, again, the question comes, peter: why are you here? is your life so devoid of fun that you take enjoyment out of the constant pummeling you take here?

yes, i have read your posts. and i agree with cranky: you're a pathetic little man who has no clue what he's talking about.

you come in here and alternately 'befriend' and then alienate every other poster here, ending with the littlebrained 'unamerican' taunt.

you argue a point well past its ending, and continue to throw up the same argument that has been refuted and re-refuted, and re-re-refuted. do you WANT us to hate you? is your self-esteem so low that you need to make yourself as unloveable as possible in order to prove that no one loves you?

talk about self-fulfillnig prophesies.

so, if you think you've won some little victory for your Uberwealthy masters in the Neocon Bush party, then claim it, and get the hell out of here.

how can we miss you if you won't go away?

yeharr

10:38 AM, December 03, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

"We like having you hear." No mistake there. It just went over your head.

-pretty far fetched cranky, but it doesn't wash. are you so arrogant that you never admit mistakes, even if they're as mundane as this one?

cranky, you contradict yourself:

"Congress, GOP and Dem, was duped."

-in one of your many rants you said they voted for war for political reasons. don't say they were duped now. don't change your stance.

this list of yours is a rant, cranky. full of projection and innaccuracies. you're such a simple, open book, this is a joke.

are you that dilluded that you think you're derailing me from interrupting other posts? in that one statement of yours, sums up who you are and your grandoise opinions of yourself. ashame no one in the real world agrees with you cranky.

you have problems with authority figures, probably started with your pappy. alot of you lefties suffer this same trauma. now you lash out at america, the preseident and anyone else with a differing opinion. you're pathetic, cranky, 'cause you're still fighting your pappy and most of what you say comes from a very dark and sinister heart.

by the by, i was too disgusted to remark on your christmas posts. you really have problems when you bastardize this season. but it all goes back to the abuse you suffered under an authority figure.

i guess i should feel sorry for you.

crawl back in your hovel, watch rambo, say the lines as they play out on your crappy tv and live vicariously thru john rambo.

balloon, why can't you say something and stick with it? you say you won't respond to anything i say, yet you come back for more and more.

balloon, you betray your own words. and i still wouldn't sell you a gun.

4:51 AM, December 04, 2005  
Blogger Balloon Pirate said...

Yep. I failed at ignoring you.

Today's a new day, though. And I'll try again.

But you called me Unamerican.

The final desperate cry of the little brains: branding someone who disagrees with you, and voices that disagreement--the most American of rights--as Unamerican.

This says to me (and everyone else who views this blog), that deep inside, you know your arguments are as vacuous and shallow as you say you are. You had no other option, and we called you on it.

I will try again to ignore you. Perhaps I will respond again. It's difficult to drive by a train wreck without stopping to look.

And that's what you are, peter: a sad, little train wreck.

Yeharr

7:52 AM, December 04, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

okay... just stop lashing out at america, the metaphorical parent who never loved you and this is how you take your nasty little vengeance. like i said, i should feel sad for you...

8:09 AM, December 04, 2005  
Blogger Cranky Yankee said...

I thought you were anti-god? If you don't see the irony of the word "bastardize" in a comment about xmas you're as vacuous (nice one BP) as you sound.

Feel free to open the debate on the history of xmas in that thread.

As your hero once said, "bring it on." Consider yourself called out.

8:12 AM, December 04, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

go back to watching rambo, cranky, you've got nothing new to say...

you and bp are so pathetic you're using school yard bully tactics 101 and it's absurd. you're like two nerds empowering themselves.

do you have any friends, cranky?

i don't have to ask the same of balloon.

"caught out?" whatever that means cranky. maybe you should reconcile your issues with your pappy. anyone who prides themselves on being "cranky" surely has issues that need to be addressed.

address them cranky, then maybe you can enjoy a little christmas cheer, you black-hearted little child.

8:22 AM, December 04, 2005  
Blogger Cranky Yankee said...

Well, at least I had a father.. You know there are some studies, that you wingers love to cite that make the case that the lack of a male role model for children in the home can lead to some negative adults traits. Perhaps you are the proof.. Just saying... There has to be an explanation. It could also be fetal alcohol syndrome. Maybe you were oxygen deprived? Maybe you just didn't get enough hugs...

Ok, then I guess you can't refute my assertions regarding xmas.

Maybe you are learning something..

9:27 AM, December 04, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

cranky, you're projecting. again. how surprising.

i'm so tired of your rants. i mean, grow up. you're 40 something and go around priding yourself on being cranky. ridiculous. infantile. you're a tired joke.

like i said, address your issues with your pappy.

as far as christmas is concerned, you're too far gone on the issue to have an educated discussion. but once again, it's all about having a "battle" isn't it cranky?

what a joke.

you're so bitter you've become repudiating. hopefully you won't make the same mistakes on your kids that your old man pulled on you. but, i fear, it's already too late, isn't it?

9:37 AM, December 04, 2005  
Blogger Cranky Yankee said...

Not enough hugs, definitely.

6:22 PM, December 04, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

c'mon crankster. don't say that about yourself. i'm sure after ten years of psychiatric care you'll get over the lost love of your pappy.

7:50 PM, December 04, 2005  
Anonymous peter said...

cranky and balloon. an excellent article from a true american soldier:

The Party of Defeat

By David Bellavia

As an infantryman whose boots are still caked with blood and dust from Iraq, I am at a loss to understand what Representative John Murtha (D-PA) was thinking when he recently delivered his defeatist comments about our military efforts.

Murtha’s outrage, like that of many Democrats, is completely directed at the war in Iraq and the large number of American youth far from home and serving in harm’s way. Curiously, no comparable anger is triggered by the 1,700 American troops patrolling Kosovo’s tranquil streets. No complaints issue from the anti-war crowd regarding the 3,000-troop strong presence in Bosnia. And what of the 1,754 troops stationed in Iceland? One seeks in vain for anti-war crowds chanting, “Mr. President, bring home our boys from Iceland!”

Iraq, of course, is a different story. John Murtha, offering his Bronze Star with Valor (BSV) as a badge of his authority, demands a precipitous withdrawal from Iraq. On behalf of every veteran of Iraqi Freedom who has exchanged hot lead with the enemy, allow me to observe that Congressman Murtha does not understand the situation in Iraq. Murtha quotes an unscientific poll that asserts that “80 percent of Iraqi’s want us out.” I am no John Zogby but I conclude that 100 percent of Iraqis want us out—eventually. At the moment, however, they very much want us there while Islamofascists continue to blow them up. And they want us to continue training them to defend themselves in the cause of freedom.

Rather than acknowledging the vital mission being carried out by the troops, the Democratic leadership prefers to disparage our efforts. My fellow soldiers are not appreciative of Senators Kennedy and Kerry’s daily attempts to uncover mistakes made by this administration as we come under fire thousands of miles from our homes. In the era of the digital satellite, these senators never consider the bigger picture, and have put us on trial for executing a war as it unfolds.

Former administrations ignored the present danger in this region for years before 9/11, and today we in the trenches pay the price for our past inability to confront our enemies. Each day, the enemy hopes that one more ten-plus death toll inflicted against coalition forces will be the last straw of the American collective will. The actions of Kerry, Kennedy, Dean, et al.—voting against the immediate pullout of the troops and then supporting Murtha’s ignorant remarks on every television program that offers an invitation—constitute a political attack on the troops, an attack that is aiding our enemy.



Though soldiers bleed for the right to dissent, we must remember that at times dissent will embolden our desperate Islamofascist enemy, especially when they read accounts of the growing fecklessness of the American people and her policy makers. Each day, legislators like Murtha move us closer to losing a winnable war and abandoning a worthy ally. Instead of supporting our cause, they stoke the fires of the Islamist faithful, those who would see a pullout in Iraq as a greater victory than the Soviet retreat from Afghanistan.



Despite the steady drumbeat of negativity, the troops remain undaunted. This is a middle to lower class war fought by volunteers of the greatest generation of American warriors ever born. I have written over 47 Bronze Stars with Valor (BSV) awards for the members of my 34-man infantry platoon. The BSV is growing more and more common during this fight, yet my peers cannot use their awards as a platform to defend their noble struggle because they are still deep in the fight.



Our critics in Congress are burdened by no such constraints. Neither Rep. Murtha nor any other Congressional representative has held a position in a skirmish line under fire in Iraq. Nonetheless, they pontificate to the masses about “their” war experience. Not one has borne witness to the extreme close-quarter nature of this fight or commented on the tearful thanks from a deserving and proud Iraqi people who need us to stay the course.



Instead, Rep. Murtha has the audacity to call my fellow soldiers “broken.” But despite such pessimism, amplified by a cynical media, we are not “broken,” On the contrary, we are winning. Hundreds of thousands of Iranian-trained Hezbollah terrorists, as well as Chechnyan, Wahabbi, and local mujahadeen militants have been pacified by our young patriots. It is regrettable that a man like Murtha, who made his career detailing his undisputed heroism under fire, is the first to chip away at my generation’s valor. Nor have we, as Senator Kerry recently claimed, “terrorized Iraqis in their homes.” And while many anti-war Democrats would have you believe otherwise, we are most certainly not “living hand to mouth.”



These and similar attacks have succeeded only in tarnishing the reputation of the American soldier. Each day, the Iraq War veteran grows closer to the embarrassing disrespect once heaped on the Vietnam warrior. Not only does the Democratic leadership deny the transparent fact that Iraq is indeed the front line in the War on Terror, but it feels the need to apologize for our nation’s ability to deliver unrelenting, but prudent lethality onto our deserving enemies. Thus, their warped template for fighting a war: pull out when the blood starts to flow.

Against this strategy of defeat, the president has called for staying the course. Staying the course isn’t a campaign slogan; it is a life support message for those of us in the midst of battle. Congressman Murtha above all others should know the perils inherent in dictating military policy from across the Potomac. I imagine he can still taste the spittle of anti-war protestors from 30 years ago. As was the case in Vietnam, the American soldier cannot be defeated on the field of battle. It is only the failure of the political class to stomach the hardships of combat that stands in the way of our victory.


David Bellavia is a former Army Staff Sergeant who served in the First Infantry Division for six years. He has been recommended for the Medal of Honor by his leadership, and has been nominated for the Distinguished Service Cross. He has received the Silver Star, the Bronze Star, the Conspicuous Service Cross (New York states highest combat valor award) and was recently inducted into the New York State Veteran’s Hall of Fame. His Task Force 2-2 Infantry has fought on such battlefields as Al Muqdadiyah, An Najaf, Al Fallujah, Mosul, and Baqubah. His actions in Fallujah, Iraq were documented in the November 22, 2004 cover story “Into the Hot Zone” by award winning journalist Michael Ware. He is 30 years old.


it's very interesting to see how out of touch your own party is. how lacking in sensitivity. the democratic party sees nothing wrong in betraying the soldiers for mere votes. disgusting.

12:07 PM, December 09, 2005  

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